Keywords: Tachycardia, catheter, estrogen, breast cancer, blood pressure, AIDS, HIV, spleen area, thymus area, the axillary area, painful lesions, CD4, CD-8 laves, Kaposis Sarcoma, pneumaocystis carinii, burnings, lyphoedema, fibrosis of the lympoedema, piroplasmosis of the horses, protezoant, lumpus, VC carvali, VC equi, pos-op wounds, viral load, PCR testing, dermatopathy, hyperplasia, prostate,lupus, hiatal hernia, adeno carcinoma, asthma, fibroid tumor, harmon imbalance, treating horses, conductivity, open lesions, vascular stasis ulcers, viruses of the extremities, cancer, fractures, x-rays.

Friday, November 17, 1995

Conference call with Gregg Hillman.

Mr. Hillman:
This is Gregg Hillman calling for the first conference call involving PAP IMI users and people that are interested. What I'd like to do right now is do a roll call to find out who is present and to let the other participants know who is on the line.
First of all, Dr. Pappas, are you there? And Dr. Tsilimigakis?

Dr. Pappas:
Yes, I am with Dr. Tsilimigakis and I hope you got in touch with Dr. Papadopoulos at his hospital and also Dr. Zambackos would like to be with us, but unfortunately we could not connect with him. If you want I can give you his number and you can call him. 011-304-219-0045 - Dr. Zambackos.

Mr. Hillman:
And also concerning getting another number, Chuck, are you on right now?

Mr. Chuck Wallach:
Yes.

Mr. Hillman:
Could you give the number for Alan Robinson again in Tokyo? They said that was a bad number.

Mr. Wallach:
I'll be away from the phone to get it. I'll be right back.

Mr. Hillman:
It's still doing the roll call. Is Dr. Papadopoulos on the phone?

Dr. Papadopoulos:
Yes, I'm on the phone.

Mr. Hillman:
Good! And we have Jeff Freeman.

Dr. Freeman:
Yes, I'm here, thank you.

Mr. Hillman:
And we have Rene Ruf?

Mr. Ruf:
I'm here.

Mr. Hillman:
And is Dr. Vandervere there, from South Africa? I guess not. And then we have Charles Wallach.

Dr. Charles Wallach:
I'm here.

Mr. Hillman:
And we have Paul L..

Dr. L.:
I'm here.

Mr. Hillman:
And we have Dr. Saxena.

Dr. Saxena:
I'm here.

Mr. Hillman:
Is there anybody listening in that I haven't mentioned?

Dr. Zimmerman:
Austria.

Mr. Hillman:
Give me the number for Alan Robinson.

Mr. Chuck Wallach:
703-3407-5696.

Mr. Hillman:
I think that's what they have. Operator!

Operator:
Yes. Is 03 a city code?

Mr. Hillman:
You might just try three, take the zero out.

Operator:
Okay, I'll look up the country code for that then. Let me make sure I got the rest of it. 03-34-075696. And that was for Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Hillman:
And then also call the other number in Greece.

Operator:
Okay, for Dr. Zambackos. Okay, I'll do that.

Mr. Hillman:
Okay, now I'd like to start the meeting, those people can come in later on. The first thing - there are three areas I'd like to cover today during the meeting. The first thing would be contraindications for the machine, in other words, safety problems or problems that it has caused people. The only problems that I'm aware of is for women that have breast cancer the machine shouldn't be used on their ovaries because it induces the production of estrogen. It also shouldn't be used on certain patients directly over their heart because it appears to cause tachycardia.* And also on patients that have a catheter that's put in, if there's an infection in the catheter or an incision after surgery that's infected, sometimes, or at least we have one case where it appears to cause bacteria cultures to grow and can cause problems. But we'd like to query you all for any other contraindications.
That's the first subject.
The next subject, we're going to cover novel protocols that are used by the machine, and in particular, Dr. Tsilimigakis along with Dr. Pappas are going to talk about that.
And then finally we're going to cover new diseases that are being treated and we're going to open it up and give everybody a chance to talk.
*(After the teleconference had ended, Dr. Pappas added the following comment for inclusion in the record.)

Dr. Pappas:
Mr. Hillman referred to his own experience of tachycardia (higher pulse rate) which followed use of the PAP IMI over his heart area. I discussed this matter with Dr. Tsilimigakis. It is not generally true that the PAP IMI causes tachycardia. Perhaps, the tachycardia that Mr. Hillman refers to and he claimed to have experienced is due to the effort of his heart to restore his blood pressure. The device is known to lower blood pressure for 10 or 20 minutes following treatments. People who are weak or thin or have low blood pressure may possibly experience tachycardia as their heart attempts to compensate for the lower pressure.
No more serious complications have ever been seen than a mildly higher pulse rate associated with the phenomenon we just referred to for persons who normally have low blood pressure.
The operation manual for the device refers to this blood pressure lowering side effect. In conclusion, almost 20 scientists and physicians who have had extensive experience with the PAP IMI have reported no harmful side effects.
But the way we're going to handle it first is, number one, I'm going to have Dr. Papadopoulos talk for about five minutes about his experience with AIDS patients at a hospital in Greece. And then we're going to have Dr. Tsilimigakis talk about his protocol with AIDS patients at his private office. And then I'm going to have Dr. Saxena just talk for about two minutes, requesting data on AIDS patients.
So first, I'm going to have Dr. Antonios Papadopoulos talk. So go ahead.

Dr. Papadopoulos:
Thank you very much Mr. Hillman. I'd like to introduce ourselves. I'm Dr. Papadopoulos. I'm working in the First Hospital of Social Security, IKA in Athens, St., Melissia . And we are working in an AIDS unit since 1987. We have seen, up to now, almost 320 patients with AIDS. We also run an endoscopy unit. Since 1987 we have been members in the European network of the project management groups for clinical research in the treatment of AIDS.
We have also participated in various clinical protocols and ? 5, Euro AIDS, Euro SIDA and others.
We have had experience with the PAP IMI device since February of this year.
We have a permit from the Greek Drug Organization to run a protocol. First we have applied this device in patients with Kaposis' sarcoma and other various painful lesions in order to ameliorate their symptoms. We apply this device twice per week for 25 minutes with power 4. We apply the probe over the spleen area, over the thymus area, the axillary(?) area, in the neck area - over the neck lymph nodes, and in a few instances over painful lesions. We follow their CD4 and CD-8 levels, their clinical progress, and some other laboratory parameters as well. Until now we have applied the device in treating 13 patients with AIDS.
Two of them had only a short period of treatment so we cannot evaluate them.
Two others died shortly after -Operator: Excuse me, Sergio Del Rio joins you.

Dr. Papadopoulos:
Briefly, I can say that up to now we have been able to evaluate nine patients. We've seen that the clinical condition was stabilized in five of them and was improved in four of them during the time of PAP IMI application.
The CD4 cell count has increased in three of them, was at least stabilized in five of them, and in only one of them did we notice a decrease in their CD4 count.
In five patients who were stabilized there was a stabilization in Kaposis sarcoma and in four of them we had an improvement. Now, referring to the CD4 counts, in three of them we had a remarkable increase in CD4 count. I'd like to mention one patient whose CD4 count had increased from 266 to 558.
Another patient had an increase from 40 cells to 284 cells. And a third one had an increase from 60 cells up to 235.
All three of these patients had remarkable improvements in the general conditions and, two patients also had improvement also in their Kaposis sarcoma lesions.

Operator:
Dr. Sevaedra joins you.

Dr. Papadopoulos:
We have noticed no side effects or any other adverse effects from this application and we were very happy about this. We followed up all of these patients. In two of these patients with a rather high CD4 count, over 300, we have applied this device, in order to see what's going on in this stage. All of these are in CDC stage A2.
So after we obtained a rather good profile in our first patients, we proceeded to carry out viral load measurements. Results are not yet available, but will be available very shortly, and we are anxiously waiting for these results. Because if the viral load measurements are compatible with the CD4 count increases, then we'll go on to treat other patients in less advanced stages of the HIV disease. That's what I'd like to quote briefly.

Mr. Hillman:
Thank you very much Dr. Papadopoulos. Now, could Dr Nick Tsilimigakis and Panos Pappas talk about the experiment at his private office with AIDS patients.

Dr. Pappas:
Okay, Gregg, this is Pappas and Dr Tsilimigakis. I will be an interpreter for Nick.

Dr. Tsilimigakis:
Hello, this is Nikos Tsilimigakis. Sorry, but I don’t hear you well Translation will be by Dr. Pappas.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Pappas, why don't you go ahead and describe the protocol, the number of patients he's treated, his new protocol and details. Go ahead.

Dr. Pappas:
Okay, Nick has treated up to 7 cases with AIDS. Of course he has treated numerous other cancer patients with similar successes.

Mr. Hillman:
Can you tell us who Nick Tsilimigakis is.

Dr. Pappas:
Nick Tsilimigakis is a private medical doctor who is practicing privately in Athens and has had a long experience with public hospitals. Recently he has begun practicing on his own. He's been receiving AIDS patients and cancer patients and mainly terminal ones, that have had no hope of being cured in any other place. Now, as far as AIDS is concerned, he's using a double method.
The first method is one that resembles the Albert Einstein College method that was announced in 1991 by Dr. Kaali and later was succeeded by Dr. Saxena. What is he doing? He places needles in particular places and applies pulsed currents. He's doing that for half an hour or so. Now, by doing this, we don't know exactly what is happening in the blood stream. One assumption is that free radicals are neutralized by electrolysis, but Nick has developed another diagnostic tool in which he measures the electrical resistance of the human body between the two hands. And consistently he finds that the resistance is over 20 kilo ohms, which is measured by applying current at 45 volts. For a normal person he measures current of about 4 milliamperes at 45 volts.
Usually, AIDS patients find out that their current drops below, around 1 or 2 milliamperes.
Now, by doing this double treatment, the patient's conductivity is found to increase over a one month period. In doing this treatment Nick also applies the PAP IMI device locally wherever there are infections and over the lymph node system. And he has spectacular results which normally one would not expect for low CD4 counts. We have noticed that when the CD4 counts are below 10 then the device has no response, it does not increase the CD4 count. However, Nick has managed to increase counts that are even below 10, and there's no question, that anyone that is over 100, their CD4 count will at least double within two to three weeks or months. The local hospital physicians have been amazed. This is essentially the protocol -he's treated twice a week for 20 minutes with the PAP IMI device, and just as frequently, for about half an hour, with invasively pulsed currents, the same kind that Dr. Saxena is very familiar with.
That's mainly the idea. He's next to me, and probably there are some questions which he will directly answer if you like.

Mr. Hillman:
Was there weight gain in the patients?

Dr. Pappas:
Yes. Nick said to me that almost as a rule, within one or two weeks, the gain is about 10 to 20 pounds for every AIDS patient. And the clinical picture also improves very, very significantly.

Mr. Hillman:
The number of patients that he has treated with AIDS?

Dr. Pappas:
The total number of patients is about seven.
Most of them were at the very last stages.

Mr. Hillman:
Are there any other questions for Dr. Tsilimigakis and his treatment?

Mr. Wallach:
Is the pulsed current DC?

Dr. Pappas:
Yes, it is DC, pulsed DC.

Dr. L.:
Did the CD4 count increase in all the patients that were treated?

Dr. Pappas:
Yes, in every case it has increased. Yes. And Evangelismos is the main hospital that was monitoring these patients. So in conclusion there's a double method, using the (PAP IMI) device as well as the original Kaali treatment applying the direct electrical current through the tissue.

Dr. Freeman:
Did the Doctor by any chance, do any PCR testing on the patients to determine the viral load before or after treatment?

Dr. Pappas:
No. Dr. Tsilimigakis has actually not done so. This diagnostic method was available only recently in Greece.

Mr. Del Rio:
This is from Hospital Del Rio in Tijuana. Specifically in the Kaposis Sarcoma, Doctor, how do you suggest that the probe of the machine be located when the problem is spread all over the body?

Dr. Pappas:
With Kaposis Sarcoma, the people that have the experience are Dr. Papadopoulos and his team, Dr. Arkadianos, and Dr. Stergios. He would probably answer this question.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Papadopoulos, can you answer that question, what was your experience with Kaposis Sarcoma?

Dr. Papadopoulos:
When the lesions of Kaposis Sarcoma were extensive, of course we could not apply the probe all over the body. But when the lesions were rather limited, less than five, then we applied this probe over the area.
And we noticed, at least in two patients, that we had a remarkable response.
In one of them, after almost nine months application, we've seen no worsening and at least on one occasion a lessening of the size of the lesions. In one patient, this patient who had a lessening of the lesions, he also has a very good condition and a very remarkable increase of CD4 count, from 266 to 558. And he has also gained weight, almost 5 kilograms during this period.
In patients that had many lesions, we didn't see such an effect.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Tsilimigakis, what is your experience with Kaposis Sarcoma?

Dr. Pappas:
I just asked him. He has no experience on Kaposis Sarcoma, however, he wants to make another remark.
He says to me, that it is important to note that there is an observable, but significant increase in the natural condition of the AIDS patients. That's very obvious and he gets a very spectacular improvement immediately after the combination of the two treatments.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Pappas, where does Dr. Tsilimigakis put his probe with the Pappas machine?

Dr. Tsilimigakis:
Directly in the place of the problem. Directly in the area, for instance, in the case of pneumocystis carinii, in the lungs. But it is important to note that the patient's natural condition very quickly improves, in one month, we have a miraculous improvement of the physical condition. In two months we have a patient without problems, without all the symptoms of the disease.

Dr. Pappas:
And he says that the physical condition is more improved than what is shown by the blood analysis. I mean, if we have an improvement of CD4 counts, say a doubling, the physical condition is almost normal, which is more spectacular than the increase or the improvement in CD4.
He says that what matters is the restitution so the person can get back into his normal energy. And that's what is more important. So the person can get back to work and can perform even if the CD4 is still relatively speaking, lower than a healthy person's CD4 count. Although it has increased, but his natural condition is almost as a healthy person.
So he says that the CD4 count doesn't give the whole picture. Maybe this amount is still less than it is in a normal person, but the condition of the person is almost normal.

Mr. Hillman:
Right now I'm going to bring on Dr. Brij Saxena to have him just talk for about two minutes indicating his desire to have data on AIDS patients.

Dr. Saxena:
Thank you Gregg and greetings everybody. It's very interesting for me to hear all of this, very encouraging. My role right now is to reply to the questions raised by the FDA of the United States on the IDE application of Dr. Pappas. And I think many of those questions can be answered by finding material in the literature and Gregg Hillman and Paul L. have been very helpful. But my biggest problem is to get the concrete, specific numerical clinical medical data.
Because one of the points that the FDA has raised is that if we can provide them data on 10 patients then we don't have to do the animal studies for the FDA to approve the device. Therefore, my request, really humbly to all of you is if you could send us detailed clinical data history, medication, and the tests that have been done. Or if I can help you in any way to do some tests so that I can answer these questions more in terms of mechanism, more in terms of the relationship of the CD increase to the infection. I'm sure you understand that these kinds of things are what they are looking for. So again, I thank everybody if you can all send us this data.

Dr. Savaedra:
Dr. Saxena, this is Dr. Savaedra from (?) Clinic. Do you refer only to AIDS patients or to any other kinds of patients?

Dr. Saxena:
Well, I think it will be good to send other patients too because what they want is that if we show the efficacy of the PAP IMI, we should also provide supporting data, supporting machines, supporting things which have a similar, not identical, use of electrical stimulations. All this data will be very helpful to strengthen the response.

Dr. Savaedra:
Thank you.

Dr. Papadopoulos:
This is Dr. Papadopoulos from Greece. We would be very happy to give our records to Dr. Saxena in order to provide some of the information that he needs. Within the very near future we shall have comparative results on viral load in two patients. And also these results will be sent to you when they are available.

Dr. Saxena:
Also please include the protocol with the results.

Dr. Papadopoulos:
We will. And we will also include our official license from the Greek drug organization.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Saxena, you wanted the patient histories too, is that correct?

Dr. Saxena:
Correct. Yes.

Mr. Hillman:
If it's possible to have a patient history of these people, that would be helpful also.

Dr. Saxena:
They could come on a computer disk if it's difficult to send them.
We can decipher those here, if it is too much. But the more details we have, the easier it will be for me to respond to these questions.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Savaedra, did you have any experience with AIDS patients there, with the PAP machine?

Dr. Savaedra:
No. We don't really treat AIDS patients here.

Mr. Hillman:
Did Dr. Del Rio have experience?

Dr. Del Rio:
No. I don't think so. He's the manager of the clinic and the medical director here and we treat mostly chronic illnesses and cancer, not AIDS.

Mr. Hillman:
One thing I'd like to do right now that we have the doctors on the phone, is have anybody speak up as to contra-indications for the machine. In other words, any bad experiences or conditions that the machine should not be used for or safety concerns. Just anybody, let's say Dr. Zimmerman, for example. Have you run across any contraindications?

Dr. Zimmerman:
No. I have nothing. No contraindications.

Mr. Hillman:
Are there any other contraindications from any of the other doctors?

Dr. Charles Wallach:
I don't think anyone has mentioned the cardia pacemakers. I don't believe it's been checked out.

Dr. Pappas:
I think that is contraindicated for all pulsed frequency devices. Such devices are contraindicated for any electronic implants.

Mr. Hillman:
The next thing I'd like to cover is new diseases that the machine has been used for. In other words, maybe I'd like to ask Dr. Zimmerman , have you used the machine for conditions other than - what have you been using the machine for?

Dr. Zimmerman:
I'm a general doctor and so do not exclusively have cancer patients. We have had two very good effects with burnings. One is a girl who had a burn on the front thorax(?) with hot water at eighteen months of age. Now the girl is 11 years old. The burn scars were very hard and the skin color was very red. We treated this girl for three months with microstream and so the skin became a little softer. Then we started with the PAM IMI device. And after two treatments the girl said she could feel her bones again, so soft was the tissue. And after the third treatment the sensation, the sensibility of the skin, which has been gone for 10 years was all okay. This was a very interesting experience.
The second experience with burning was an acute facial burning with oil. It was a burn in stage 2 with blisters. After two or three treatments, the blisters were gone and there was a new skin under the blisters. The skin was dry, and there were no scars and also the brown pigmentation present in the beginning was gone after eight treatments. It was very interesting.
And yesterday and today, this week, I had a patient, 40 years old, with a primary lymphoedema of the right leg, with a very hard fibrosis. So I only had experience with this patient this week. After treatment, the fibrosis of the lymphoedema was very soft. So you can see very good effects on the tissue.

Dr. Savaedra:
I'd like to know where you placed the probe for the lymphoedema?

Dr. Zimmerman:
With the primary lymphoedema of the leg, I started with the thymus - six minutes, six minutes to the lymph nodes ingrinal, and 12 minutes on the fibrosis near the knee.

Dr. Freeman:
Although I'm not a veterinarian, we've had some interesting experiences with a disease called piroplasmosis of horses, which is a protezoant from a VC carvali or a VC equi, either one of those, that produces clinical symptoms of high temperatures, edema, and fluid in the abdomen and the legs of the horses.
These horses we've been treating with it are going to be '96 competitors in the Olympics in Georgia. They show positive tiders. We've been using it, giving them five minute treatments to the areas which are most symptomatic, and we found that basically the tiders are clearing up and that the horses are clinically well now. I must admit, we've been giving them some other homeopathic products along with it nosodes, to accelerate the process, but they've responded extremely well and I accredit this mostly to the machine.*

Mr. Hillman:
Do any other doctors want to report on new novel conditions the machine's been used for? Diseases?

* (After the teleconference had ended, Dr. Pappas added the following comment for inclusion in the record.)

Dr. Pappas:
Also here in Greece we have had some excellent results in treating horses. A horse with broken tendon which was judged to be unable to run and useless for racing forever, after two days of treatments with the PAP IMI started exercising and in one week was raceable with normal mobility. Also a horse that sustained wounds on the knees due to being kicked by another horse was excluded from the races for six weeks. After being treated with the PAP IMI, it was able to race the next day. Another horse had marks and wounds on its skin from an unknown dermatopathy. After being treated with the PAP IMI the larger main wound had healed by 80% in two days and other areas of the dermatopathy had totally cleared up. In another case, a horse with postoperative wounds that normally would take a month to close, after being treated three times with the PAP IMI, completely healed in three days.
Also a horse with a spine problem that was unable to race, after being treated twice with the PAP IMI (each time 30 minutes locally on the back), recovered completely.

Dr. Charles Wallach:
This is Dr. Wallach, I have one anecdotal report.
I recently had three abdominal surgeries in one week and I've been using the machine effectively to eliminate the post-op pain. However, I also have benign hyperplasia of the prostate and had been having to arise two or three times a night to urinate. But after a week of using the machine on my post-op scars, I find that I no longer have to rise at night.

Mr. Chuck Wallach:
Does this also affect hiatal hernia? Has anyone treated lupus? Do we have any lupus results?

(silence)

Dr. L.:
Apparently not.

Mr. Hillman:
No. Well, these were some of the main things. Dr. Tsilimigakis has mentioned his protocol, a novel protocol using the PAP IMI device with another machine involving probes and electrical current. Has there been any other novel protocols that have been used with the machine that anybody would like to report?

Dr. Pappas:
Apparently, I guess not.

Dr. Pappas:
Gregg, Dr. Tsilimigakis wants me to make a report. He has a report from a hospital for a patient who was operated three times for a pseudomyxima of a peritoneum because of adeno carcinoma of the liver. That condition was considered incurable, and could not be operated on or could not receive any other treatment, and the patient was considered permanently affected for the rest of his life. After receiving six months of treatment, (with the PAP IMI) all these conditions have disappeared and now his natural condition is excellent and that is certified by all sorts of laboratory examinations. And that was a main issue in the local press here.
That was a very well documented case and a typical one that Dr. Tsilimigakis was treating in the area of cancer. And this was the report from the University of Athens School of Medicine Clinic of Surgery. That's the headlines of the certificate I translated to you.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Pappas, why don't you mention that you mentioned at the health fair in Pasadena that you have treated some patients with asthma

Operator:
Dr. Johnson has joined.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Pappas, why don't talk about the asthma experience quickly?

Dr. Pappas:
The asthma experience is almost one of the best results we get with all kinds of asthma. The response is: with one treatment we get about 50 percent recovery from the bad condition. And with the second treatment almost about 75 percent recovery. And in three or four treatments nothing is left.
Sometimes a maintenance treatment is needed after the three months. There is a spectacular improvement in those conditions. And another thing I'd like to mention is fibroid tumors associated with women, which includes my wife. Apparently the treatment works very well when they have a hormone imbalance, where a hormone is rather excessive or another hormone is less relative to the estrogens. After receiving treatment in the abdominal area for a three month period, it seems that fibroid tumors disappear
Actually my wife was diagnosed with three major fibroid tumors, and they wanted to operate on her. So I arrived, urgently from Los Angeles, back to Athens and I asked her personal doctor to postpone the surgery and allow me to treat her for a month and we did so and within three months the tumors had retreated significantly. And within a year there was absolute no trace of those fibroid tumors, though we knew the original location, it could no longer be traced at the same hospital where she was first diagnosed. And that's now completely in remission.
And that's typical. We have several other cases where we have successfully treated fibroid tumors.
Also we had a recent experience with horses too, and I cannot recall the various improvements but it seems to work very well on horses legs and on all kinds of animals which have not received any antibiotics and any other treatment.
They seem to be helped much more than humans.
Also cancer patients who have not received chemotherapy respond much faster. In particular their stabilization is spectacular after surgery. They develop no metastasis if they take PAP IMI exposures once a month, for 20 minutes. In all cases their markers are normal. We saw no cancer activity. We have had not a single case in which the cancer returned, although sometimes we had to fight against suggestions to receive chemotherapy after surgery. So chemotherapy is something that does not allow the treatments to be as effective. Presumably the effect of the PAP IMI is through improving the immune system.* But if the immune system is really destroyed by chemotherapy or by AIDS or by any condition, and it's really, really low, then there is no help in that case.
However, the method of Tsilimigakis, as I talked to him, seems to be able to work even when the immune system is at this low stage that it cannot recover with the IMI exposures alone. Also, he's suggesting to me that by doing so he confirms that the patient's electrical resistance goes down. Though by giving a single PAP IMI treatment, the resistance does not change. Now, if the resistance is too high, we

* (After the teleconference had ended, Dr Tsilimigakis and Dr Pappas added the following comments for inclusion in the record.)

Dr. Tsilimigakis:
The PAP-IMI treatments have a strong influence on the immune system and healing processes. We have seen Lesly's wounds, and numerous other kinds of wounds that wouldn't heal, heal in two to three weeks with PAP IMI treatment. So the effect on healing and wounds is a given for the PAP IMI. Now, under certain conditions the PAP IMI may also initiate the process of wound healing in cancer treatment. With a cancer tumor, and in particular with an extended diffuse tumor, under certain treatments the body begins to create new tissue, pushing the tumor out. This is fantastic. It initiates the "foreign body reaction" to reject the tumor out.

Dr. Pappas:
We had seen this before, but did not realize what was happening, as more swelling was caused and more pain appeared as the tumor began to be pushed out know that there is no electrical current through the tissues even if there are strong exposures. So these pulsed current treatments, somehow prepare the tissues to receive the IMI device treatments by lowering the resistance of the tissues. And this is confirmed with measurements.

Mr. Hillman:
Thank you. Dr. Pappas, could you have Dr. Tsilimigakis describe the apparatus that he uses one more time, for his device in terms of where the probes are placed?

Dr. Pappas:
He's using needles on the left and right hand, between the thumb and the indicator. And he inserts the needles about half a centimeter deep (about 3 to 5 millimeters).

Mr. Hillman:
Then what happens next?

Dr. Pappas:
For about half an hour he's electrically pulsating the needles, which make contact directly into the bloodstream. That tends to improve the whole condition - it lowers the tissue resistance which he monitors with other instruments at the same time. So he knows after so many treatments how much has been gained. And then when the resistance is lowered, the PAP IMI treatments are given, they become more effective.

Mr. Hillman:
The PAP IMI treatment is more effective after his -

Dr. Pappas:
He prepares the tissue that way.

Mr. Hillman:
Thank you.

Dr. L.:
Another thing you could look into as a way of lowering the tissue resistance is to have the patient drink mineral water where you increase the mineral content of the body as a way of changing the tissue's conductivity.
Something like a quart of very salty mineral water. Not sodium chloride, but mineral salty. This might be something to look into.

Mr. Chuck Wallach:
A very good idea.

Dr. Pappas:
Paul this is exactly what Nick Tsilimigakis is now addressing to me. He just told me that he agrees and he's recommending strongly what you just said. Particular minerals, all sorts of minerals.

Dr. L.:
I have gone through this procedure out in Oregon, changing the conductivity of the body with mineral water.

Mr. Hillman:
Thanks Paul. Are there any other comments by any of the other doctors present or questions? If not, we're going to wrap this up and as was indicated earlier, we're going to type up the transcript of this meeting and we'll mail it out to every one of you along with your addresses and phone numbers so people will be able to contact Dr. Saxena or anybody can contact anybody else if they wish to. And if this was useful to you, we'll try to do it again sometime.

Dr. Freeman:
I just have one little comment. I've seen some really amazing results with some vascular stasis ulcers, basically refractory to everything else and definitely a surgical case. After about a week and a half of treatment with the Pappas machine, about 10 minutes a piece, we noticed a marked improvement in the sense that we got new skin growth, from an open lesion to new skin growth, as smooth as a baby's butt. It was really a pleasure to see.

Dr. L.:
And what condition was this?

Dr. Freeman:
Peripheral vascular stasis ulcer on the legs of a gentleman that was adamant about not having surgery or anything else. And we tried many other different things, including wrapping him in a (?) , all the traditional therapies and nothing worked. He had this huge open lesion. Basically his skin was peeled off. So I think that's significant.
And then I've seen some very good results with simple viruses of the extremities. That alone makes it a very valuable tool.

Mr. Hillman:
Thank you.

Dr. Pappas:
Dr. Tsilimigakis had similar experiences to Dr.Freeman's.

Mr. Hillman:
Dr. Pappas, I think -

Dr. L.:
It would be nice with all these cases we've heard, if the data could be shared. For example, the ulcer cases, the horse treatment, the lymphoedema of the leg, all these things. Is it possible to be written up as case studies and be shared with PAP Electrodynamics?

Mr. Chuck Wallach:
Yes, anything that is sent into the LA office to that fax number, we will share with all of the fax numbers that are on the list that's been faxed to each of you.

Mr. Hillman:
Then in the interest of time and expense, I think we'll wrap it up now. And if anybody has any further comments, please speak now, otherwise, thank you for participating.

Dr. Pappas:
Gregg, if we have a few more minutes, I don't know why Dr Zambackos did not come up, but he wanted to tell his experiences.

Dr. Pappas:
I would like to thank Gregg Hillman, with his initiative and generosity we are able to have this conference and I thank him very much for his contribution, which he's doing without any particular profit, so to speak….. Thank you.

Mr. Hillman:
If everyone wants to hold on we'll see if Dr. Zambackos is coming on.
Rene Ruf? Do you have any experience with the doctor in Germany that had the machine, and what he was using the machine to treat? Wasn't there another doctor in Germany?

Dr. Ruf:
He first had the unit in a clinic especially adapted for cancer treatments and the unit was used there for pain treatments but in a way that we were not very satisfied. We changed over to another doctor who is probably closer to the way Dr. Zimmerman is working. And we just have spent one week in treatments of various diseases in his viral clinic.

Operator:
I have Dr. Zambackos on the line.

Mr. Hillman:
We're doing the conference call right now with Dr. Pappas.
You wanted to report about your experiences with the machine?

Dr. Zambackos:
I have a short experience, for six months only. I can tell you about my experience for this six months. I treated, for these six months, about 12 patients. Among the patients there were two cancers, two fractures, and another who also had arthritis. I can tell you that my experience is very good to excellent with the fractures. I would say good for cancer, from clinical experience only. I haven't verified this with tests, but my clinical experience is very good with cancer. I can't say anymore, because all of my experience is very short at the moment.

Mr. Hillman:
What happened with your experience with the fractures?

Dr. Zambackos:
First of all, the pain went away immediately after 15 minutes.
There was no pain at all. Secondly the fracture healed in 15 days. And this, I verified with x-rays.

Mr. Hillman:
What kind of fractures were these?

Dr. Zambackos:
One was a fracture of the ankle. The second one was a very different fracture, a compound fracture of the wrist.

Mr. Hillman:
Thank you. If there are no further questions we're going to stop this conference call now. So thank you and hopefully we'll convene again one time. Bye.